The political divide extends beyond policy—it’s a clash of perception. One side views the other as deplorable human beings, while the other sees a threat to societal stability.
I almost teared up reading this because I didn't think anyone understood what it feels like to never even be asked, not in good faith anyway. In my experience, conservatives have more of a bless them attitude towards liberals, especially young liberals because they assume they are just idealist like most everyone is when they are young. That's not to say there aren't mean conservatives, just that the thinking is just different.
I couldn’t agree more here re: conservatives just generally having a different mindset about this.
And I think there’s a level of narcissism that comes with not even considering others’ positions or at the very least biting your tongue as soon as you realize you’re speaking too recklessly.
This just happened to me TWICE within the last week while on my walk. Both people assumed that, as a black woman in the SF Bay Area, I was a liberal and started disparaging Trump. With the first one, I didn’t say anything, but with the second one I told him that I wasn’t a liberal. He was a little perplexed and kind of backtracked. 😉
I know a black woman in Austin, TX -- a business owner -- who can relate. Her customers are almost all far-left, and they _always_ assume her politics. It drives her up the wall. She's an entrepreneur. She doesn't want your Communism.
The difference is that most Democratic voters are members of a cult, whether they know it or not, and they believe what their leaders and media personalities tell them they have a duty to believe.
Trump voters, as I'm sure you know, are a much more diverse and individualistic lot when it comes to ideology and politics. If they were a cult like the Democrats, you wouldn't have seen people in MAGA hats protesting the closure of Social Security offices.
Which is not now going to happen, BTW. That's what pushback looks like, not Bernie and AOC giving a speech in Denver.
Great post. I, like you, am an independent in my political views as I feel neither party has any interests beyond gaining and holding power. My family has written me off as some far right lunatic because I don't bow before the altar of the democrats along with a lot of my friends; it can be difficult not choosing sides in this cold civil war. Finding someone you can actually have a conversation with about politics, without it turning into a carnival of lunacy due to cognitive dissonance, is extremely rare. Luckily I have a couple of trusted friends that, while holding views I may not agree with, always respect my opinions which allows us to have great conversations. The breakdown in civil discourse around the globe is truly staggering, politics has become a blood sport due to the sheer amount of propaganda being spewed forth from every direction. The complete lack of critical thinking skills amongst 80% of the population is contributing to this issue as well, people can no longer discern truth from lies or fact from opinion.
Finding those friends who can respect your outlook without judgement is the best thing there is. Needle in haystack sort of feeling. It’s truly scary out here.
It truly is scary. I’ve always been up front with my beliefs and it wasn’t a problem until 2015, now everything is based on politics and if say the wrong thing you’re treated like a leper. Having friends you can actually speak openly with are like an oasis in the desert these days.
I'm not sure what "liberal" and "conservative" even mean any more. I was just re-watching the trailer for the Battle in Seattle movie based on the 1999 WTO protests, just to see how the definition of "right" and "left" have completely flipped on some issues.
For now, I consider myself a pragmatist. I look at people's behavior, rather than their political opinions. If someone gives a whiff of "Would try to ruin your life if you disagreed with them," then I just back away slowly...
For most people, liberals vote for Democrats and conservatives vote for Republicans. Beyond that, the words carry little meaning. And, as someone else already commented, conservatives think that Democrats are self-serving hypocrites, and liberals think that Republicans are evil.
I’ve been in this position at work, where liberal colleagues are loudly disparaging conservative political figures, assuming that I agree with them. I bite my tongue a lot when politics come up at work.
I think that's one of the main reasons why people were surprised orange won. They had no idea how many people around them voted for him. They just assumed they couldn't possibly have made such a repugnant choice.
I’m a contractor in Texas and my experience mirrors your own. since I’m a skinny, artistic type everyone assumes I’m a lefty and my clients will rail about the evil, immoral Trumpers at the drop of a hat. my more conservative clients are super nice and walk around on eggshells if anything close to politics come up. but like you mentioned, the conservative ones seems to be more open minded and critical.
I remember a world not too long ago when the reverse was true…
I've always leaned libertarian (the OG "liberal"), so I've had my disagreements with the right and left. I've had numerous friends of both persuasions, and had many a debate with them. Generally civil.
The difference? I've been able to convince, through long patience, some of my conservative friends to change their minds on some issues. One drug-warrior became an outright opponent of drug prohibition. Two of them have _almost_ embraced Geoist economic policy (being libertarian wasn't alienating _enough_ for me, so I had to find an even less popular philosophy (https://gameofrent.com/)).
But progressives? I don't think I've ever managed to change a progressive's mind on anything. They already know everything. Even the cocksure conservatives I've known would at least listen to -- and think about -- opposing arguments. Progressives seem to "just be using the time I'm talkin' to think about what they gonna say next."
And the vitriol! They'll say horrible things online that they would never say to your face. It's one thing that's always put me off the left -- the insufferable arrogance. The know-it-alls. I was interested in ideas, not "winning."
Of course, conservatives and libertarians have their jerks too. Narcissism knows no ethnicity, party, or ideology.
Thank you for this. Unshackled by a party and with the exterior of a 'liberal' (by gross stereotyping) an independent could see this phenomenon of castigation, humiliation and othering more easily. I am always amazed at the reactions of people like the gent who was surprised you could get along with everyone. Implying he would never even associate with someone who voted/thought differently. I read a quote last week that rung true for me...to paraphrase - conservatives get their opinions on liberals by talking to liberals. Liberals get their opinions of conservatives by talking to other liberals. There has also been some research done on this in the dating/friend world where liberals are 1/3 (?) less likely to associate with a conservative than vice versa. The 'othering' is chilling. I'm not sure if this is only because of the media but I'm happy to blame them. Lol.
“For me, as long as both sides are willing to engage in good-faith dialogue and remain open to new ideas—even from those they disagree with—the conversation is always worthwhile. Everyone leaves the exchange having learned something new.”
You must be talking to different Democrats than I do. No matter how well reasoned or factual my arguments are, the Dems I’ve engaged with inevitably fall back on how they “feel” about something, and refuse to move from their position because of those “feelings.” It’s one of the reasons I do t engage with Dems often, as such arguments frustrate me.
I almost teared up reading this because I didn't think anyone understood what it feels like to never even be asked, not in good faith anyway. In my experience, conservatives have more of a bless them attitude towards liberals, especially young liberals because they assume they are just idealist like most everyone is when they are young. That's not to say there aren't mean conservatives, just that the thinking is just different.
I couldn’t agree more here re: conservatives just generally having a different mindset about this.
And I think there’s a level of narcissism that comes with not even considering others’ positions or at the very least biting your tongue as soon as you realize you’re speaking too recklessly.
The way I have heard it put is that Republicans think Democrats are wrong, and Democrats think Republicans are evil.
Beautifully put!
This just happened to me TWICE within the last week while on my walk. Both people assumed that, as a black woman in the SF Bay Area, I was a liberal and started disparaging Trump. With the first one, I didn’t say anything, but with the second one I told him that I wasn’t a liberal. He was a little perplexed and kind of backtracked. 😉
😂😂 I just stay quiet and observe. I’m studying lol
Sometimes, that’s the best thing to do. 😉😅
I know a black woman in Austin, TX -- a business owner -- who can relate. Her customers are almost all far-left, and they _always_ assume her politics. It drives her up the wall. She's an entrepreneur. She doesn't want your Communism.
She loves Pinky's line from this scene in Black Belt Jones: https://youtu.be/tc6iQv3LIgU?t=120
That was hilarious! I’m surprised I had never seen that movie. Used to watch a lot of those 70s black films back in the day.😉
The difference is that most Democratic voters are members of a cult, whether they know it or not, and they believe what their leaders and media personalities tell them they have a duty to believe.
Trump voters, as I'm sure you know, are a much more diverse and individualistic lot when it comes to ideology and politics. If they were a cult like the Democrats, you wouldn't have seen people in MAGA hats protesting the closure of Social Security offices.
Which is not now going to happen, BTW. That's what pushback looks like, not Bernie and AOC giving a speech in Denver.
Great post. I, like you, am an independent in my political views as I feel neither party has any interests beyond gaining and holding power. My family has written me off as some far right lunatic because I don't bow before the altar of the democrats along with a lot of my friends; it can be difficult not choosing sides in this cold civil war. Finding someone you can actually have a conversation with about politics, without it turning into a carnival of lunacy due to cognitive dissonance, is extremely rare. Luckily I have a couple of trusted friends that, while holding views I may not agree with, always respect my opinions which allows us to have great conversations. The breakdown in civil discourse around the globe is truly staggering, politics has become a blood sport due to the sheer amount of propaganda being spewed forth from every direction. The complete lack of critical thinking skills amongst 80% of the population is contributing to this issue as well, people can no longer discern truth from lies or fact from opinion.
Finding those friends who can respect your outlook without judgement is the best thing there is. Needle in haystack sort of feeling. It’s truly scary out here.
It truly is scary. I’ve always been up front with my beliefs and it wasn’t a problem until 2015, now everything is based on politics and if say the wrong thing you’re treated like a leper. Having friends you can actually speak openly with are like an oasis in the desert these days.
I'm not sure what "liberal" and "conservative" even mean any more. I was just re-watching the trailer for the Battle in Seattle movie based on the 1999 WTO protests, just to see how the definition of "right" and "left" have completely flipped on some issues.
For now, I consider myself a pragmatist. I look at people's behavior, rather than their political opinions. If someone gives a whiff of "Would try to ruin your life if you disagreed with them," then I just back away slowly...
Amen! This is the way!
For most people, liberals vote for Democrats and conservatives vote for Republicans. Beyond that, the words carry little meaning. And, as someone else already commented, conservatives think that Democrats are self-serving hypocrites, and liberals think that Republicans are evil.
I’ve been in this position at work, where liberal colleagues are loudly disparaging conservative political figures, assuming that I agree with them. I bite my tongue a lot when politics come up at work.
It seems we all do this to keep the peace.
I think that's one of the main reasons why people were surprised orange won. They had no idea how many people around them voted for him. They just assumed they couldn't possibly have made such a repugnant choice.
It’s true. We don’t share a reality, and that makes it impossible to solve problems together. It make it impossible for Left and Right to even TALK.
I’m a contractor in Texas and my experience mirrors your own. since I’m a skinny, artistic type everyone assumes I’m a lefty and my clients will rail about the evil, immoral Trumpers at the drop of a hat. my more conservative clients are super nice and walk around on eggshells if anything close to politics come up. but like you mentioned, the conservative ones seems to be more open minded and critical.
I remember a world not too long ago when the reverse was true…
I really enjoyed reading this. I've also given a lot of thought about how the two groups see each other, and how we communicate.
Thanks James. I’ll be reading your piece as well!
https://jmpolemic.substack.com/p/talking-to-the-other-side-a-brief/comments
https://jmpolemic.substack.com/p/my-reasons-for-complacency
https://open.substack.com/pub/jmpolemic/p/overplaying-their-hand
I've always leaned libertarian (the OG "liberal"), so I've had my disagreements with the right and left. I've had numerous friends of both persuasions, and had many a debate with them. Generally civil.
The difference? I've been able to convince, through long patience, some of my conservative friends to change their minds on some issues. One drug-warrior became an outright opponent of drug prohibition. Two of them have _almost_ embraced Geoist economic policy (being libertarian wasn't alienating _enough_ for me, so I had to find an even less popular philosophy (https://gameofrent.com/)).
But progressives? I don't think I've ever managed to change a progressive's mind on anything. They already know everything. Even the cocksure conservatives I've known would at least listen to -- and think about -- opposing arguments. Progressives seem to "just be using the time I'm talkin' to think about what they gonna say next."
And the vitriol! They'll say horrible things online that they would never say to your face. It's one thing that's always put me off the left -- the insufferable arrogance. The know-it-alls. I was interested in ideas, not "winning."
Of course, conservatives and libertarians have their jerks too. Narcissism knows no ethnicity, party, or ideology.
Thank you for this. Unshackled by a party and with the exterior of a 'liberal' (by gross stereotyping) an independent could see this phenomenon of castigation, humiliation and othering more easily. I am always amazed at the reactions of people like the gent who was surprised you could get along with everyone. Implying he would never even associate with someone who voted/thought differently. I read a quote last week that rung true for me...to paraphrase - conservatives get their opinions on liberals by talking to liberals. Liberals get their opinions of conservatives by talking to other liberals. There has also been some research done on this in the dating/friend world where liberals are 1/3 (?) less likely to associate with a conservative than vice versa. The 'othering' is chilling. I'm not sure if this is only because of the media but I'm happy to blame them. Lol.
“For me, as long as both sides are willing to engage in good-faith dialogue and remain open to new ideas—even from those they disagree with—the conversation is always worthwhile. Everyone leaves the exchange having learned something new.”
You must be talking to different Democrats than I do. No matter how well reasoned or factual my arguments are, the Dems I’ve engaged with inevitably fall back on how they “feel” about something, and refuse to move from their position because of those “feelings.” It’s one of the reasons I do t engage with Dems often, as such arguments frustrate me.
The DNC leadership are political jihadists and I no longer negotiate with terrorists.